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zmohie
14th September 2007, 10:06 AM
my inquiring is about full frame camera.can E SYSTEM FROM OLY DO IT :cool:

Ian
14th September 2007, 10:11 AM
my inquiring is about full frame camera.can E SYSTEM FROM OLY DO IT :cool:

Technically, Four Thirds is a 'full frame' platform as most of the lenses are designed specifically for the system sensor size, so there is no artificial cropping.

But if you mean, can Four Thirds cameras implement a sensor with the area of a 135 format film frame?, the answer is no and there is no avenue in the system for accommodating this.

Ian

zmohie
14th September 2007, 10:35 AM
Thanks Ian

zmohie
14th September 2007, 12:57 PM
IS THAT MEANS 4/3 SYSTEM CANT implement CAMERA IN 12 MP

Ian
14th September 2007, 01:28 PM
IS THAT MEANS 4/3 SYSTEM CANT implement CAMERA IN 12 MP

It's theoretically possible to create a Four Thirds sensor with 60 megapixels. You only need to use the pixel pitch of the existing 12 megapixel sensors being used in compact point and shoot digital cameras.

Ian

Xenophos
15th September 2007, 07:28 AM
Does it matter? I can make nice A3 prints from my old 4MP Panny LZ10. The practical difference between 10 and 12 MP is negligible, and the higher the MP count the more issues with diffraction, which softens the image at smaller apertures.

No doubt there will be 12MP 4/3 cameras released in the next iteration, but personally, I'd prefer they put their efforts into improving current sensor performance rather than trying to squeeze more pointless pixels in.

I know there might be a marketing push for this which makes me wonder, could they release two versions of a camera - one with a slightly lower res but better performing sensor, and one that satisfies the marketers and consumers infatuated with more MP.

Ian
15th September 2007, 07:30 AM
Does it matter? I can make nice A3 prints from my old 4MP Panny LZ10. The practical difference between 10 and 12 MP is negligible, and the higher the MP count the more issues with diffraction, which softens the image at smaller apertures.

No doubt there will be 12MP 4/3 cameras released in the next iteration, but personally, I'd prefer they put their efforts into improving current sensor performance rather than trying to squeeze more pointless pixels in.

I know there might be a marketing push for this which makes me wonder, could they release two versions of a camera - one with a slightly lower res but better performing sensor, and one that satisfies the marketers and consumers infatuated with more MP.

I completely agree. The answer was simply to demonstrate that pixels aren't difficult to add, though I should have added that there would be a cost in terms of image quality.

Ian

Iloca
15th September 2007, 10:40 AM
If as expected more manufacturers jump on the FX/Full Frame bandwagon and the mp count rises accordingly then the pressure for 4/3rds sized cameras to keep in line regarding pixel count may well be reduced as the difference will be immense. At that point rather than trying to keep up Olympus can channel their energy into building on their own strengths and improving on the sensor perform ace. I'm sure that as technology moves forward they will be able to increase pixel count but they may do so only when there are no negative side effects.

Richard

Unregistered
15th September 2007, 02:36 PM
Yeah, I don't think there is any mileage in Olympus trying to be Canon or Nikon.

Oly already got some advantages (light, small and super quality lenses thanks to telecentric design, thanks in turn to size and ratio of the sensor; live view and dust problem solved; good prices). And olys are really well screwed together: if the insides of my dslr are as well put together as the outside, it should run for years. As for pixels: once you're past 5-7 pixels, its probably the lens thats most important.

Oly should work on IS, autofocus, and especially Dynamic Range. And out of those, only a break-through on DR would get me to trade in my current oly for a new model.

My bet is CanoNikon will go to 12 mp with their APC sized sensor soon (and sell them with a kit lens that would make my cheap oly 17.5-45 look like a star performer). You're welcome!

Ian
16th September 2007, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I don't think there is any mileage in Olympus trying to be Canon or Nikon.

Oly already got some advantages (light, small and super quality lenses thanks to telecentric design, thanks in turn to size and ratio of the sensor; live view and dust problem solved; good prices). And olys are really well screwed together: if the insides of my dslr are as well put together as the outside, it should run for years. As for pixels: once you're past 5-7 pixels, its probably the lens thats most important.

Oly should work on IS, autofocus, and especially Dynamic Range. And out of those, only a break-through on DR would get me to trade in my current oly for a new model.

My bet is CanoNikon will go to 12 mp with their APC sized sensor soon (and sell them with a kit lens that would make my cheap oly 17.5-45 look like a star performer). You're welcome!

Nikon has already gone to 12MP with the D300. Canon has kind of recognised the shortcomings of its 18-55 kit lens by deciding not to bundle it with the 40D.

Ian

alanj
16th September 2007, 07:02 PM
I agree with Alex, the difference at A4 between my old E20 and my E410 is negligible. The only advantage of !0 Mpixel is the ability to crop harder. How ever if 5Mpixel cameras are used in a similar way to the older transparency film techniques there should be minimum problems.

zmohie
16th September 2007, 07:33 PM
IF it is not advantage then why sony,canon.nikon jump on 12 mp and more

zmohie
16th September 2007, 07:38 PM
If it is not advantage then why canon,nikon and sony jump on 12 mp and more

Iloca
16th September 2007, 08:11 PM
The difference between a 4/3rds sensor at 10mp and an APS-C Nikon 12mp sensor when the image is printed at a native resolution of 300dpi is,

10mp 4/3rds = 308.9mm x 231.6mm

12mp APS-C = 361.4mm x 241.1mm

In other words 2 extra mp gives you print that is 52.5mm wider and 9.5mm higher. It won't make much difference in reality but it will make a big difference on the spec sheet to people who like to compare spec rather than take pictures.

zmohie
16th September 2007, 08:46 PM
what about 12mp 4/3rds and 12mp APS-C is it equal same size in print

Iloca
16th September 2007, 11:19 PM
what about 12mp 4/3rds and 12mp APS-C is it equal same size in print


No, the aspect ratio is different.

For comparison between a 10mp 4/3rds sensor and a 10mp APS-C (Nikon) sensor,

10mp Olympus E-400 308.9mm x 231.6mm @ 300dpi
10mp Nikon D80/D200 328.8mm x 219.5mm @ 300dpi

Malakor
17th September 2007, 02:59 AM
At $5000 for Nikon's latest full frame offering, I won't be jumping on the bandwagon anytime soon. Cheap at 'arf the price guv'nor.

Ian
17th September 2007, 07:16 AM
If it is not advantage then why canon,nikon and sony jump on 12 mp and more

Well, first of all, Canon hasn't gone to 12MP for its APS-sized sensor models yet. Sony, which makes Nikon's sensors, has decided that there is a marketing advantage to 12MP. No doubt, Canon and Four Thirds will follow at some point, but that doesn't mean it's a good move by any of the brands. Personally, I think 12MP, which is now common in compact point and shoot cameras, is pointless. It makes more sense for larger sensor cameras like DSLRs, but 12MP compared to 10MP is not a radical difference.

Ian

zmohie
17th September 2007, 06:15 PM
I agree with you Ian/ 12MP compared to 10MP is not a radical difference/.
may be in small size printed but I think the difference appear in poster size
some soft can be seen

zmohie
17th September 2007, 06:22 PM
thanks Iloca for definite answer

Ian
18th September 2007, 07:07 AM
I agree with you Ian/ 12MP compared to 10MP is not a radical difference/.
may be in small size printed but I think the difference appear in poster size
some soft can be seen

Maybe if you look closely, but most people view a poster from some distance.

Viewing distance is often forgotten when evaluating image resolution.

Ian

John Perriment
18th September 2007, 10:50 PM
You're absolutely right about viewing distance, Ian. 300ppi is the oft quoted benchmark for digital photography but I suspect this only holds true up to about a 12" x 8" print. Anything larger than this can only be viewed comfortably from further away and therefore requires less resolution.

We shouln't forget that the quality of prints from 35mm film doesn't remain constant at different enlargements, in fact beyond 12x8 it drops off rapidly but this is mitigated by greater viewing distances, which is why much larger prints are possible from a negative or transparency of sufficient quality.

Also, let's not forget that interpolation is always more successful if the original pixels are clean, and quality pixels do in any case allow larger prints at lower resolution. It would be interesting to compare a 13" print from an E1 with one from a latest 12mp compact, I think I know which camera I'd put my money on!

If Oly are able to jump to 12mp and maintain quality, great. However if they stick at 10mp and improve quality, even better. In future we may have to accept a greater pixel gap between 4/3 cameras and (especially) full frame competitors. But this shouldn't be an issue for digital photographers any more than it was for film photographers who chose 35mm over medium or large format despite the obvious gap in quality.

Incidentally, I still regularly use medium format for serious landscape work (thank goodness Velvia is back) but I am so impressed with my E500 for more general photography that I probably won't ever shoot a roll of 35mm film again.

John

Joop
1st January 2008, 04:54 PM
my inquiring is about full frame camera.can E SYSTEM FROM OLY DO IT :cool:
You have to understand that cam's today are more computers than a traditional cam as we know it. The problems with more pixels is not the sensor but the surrounding hardware. If you want just more pixels with the same parameters as with 10 or 12mp than you have a serious problem with power, write/read on a card and lots more. Not to mention heat buildup in processors, so there is a cooling problem too. They certainly find a cure for that, but that's take time, lots of it. Just wait patiently.

E1-2-E3
2nd January 2008, 08:57 AM
If Oly are able to jump to 12mp and maintain quality, great.
They have said they can:
"For the E-410 and E-510, we tuned up the Live MOS sensor to 10 megapixels to deal with the trend towards increased lens definition. .... /snipped/ ....
Needless to say, we made this sensor future-proof, making sure that it will be able to handle even more pixels in the future."

http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/special/passion/episode9_02.html

wmleler
2nd January 2008, 10:00 AM
Hear hear! We had an earlier discussion of Oly adding built-in support for taking High Dynamic Range photos. I'd rather see them do something like that rather than up the pixel count.

Paul
26th January 2008, 10:44 AM
Nikon has already gone to 12MP with the D300. Canon has kind of recognised the shortcomings of its 18-55 kit lens by deciding not to bundle it with the 40D.

Ian

I wonder it will be bundled with there new 12mp 450D..I'd hate to think of the image quality of that combo!